Mike - Albuquerque 2010-11

Your Name

Mike

Gender

Male

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Regular Attender

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Albuquerque

What years were you involved / attending?

2010, 2011

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

Mark was coming to town to speak at City on a Hill in downtown - which was becoming a MH.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

Me and a friend went to the evening service where Mark spoke about taking over the ABQ church.

What were your first impressions?

It was energetic, young, packed.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

It had a mission.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

Nothing.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

I got to relive the Discipleship Movement from the 70's.  I was in seminary at the time and after going through a session of having false accusations thrown at me - it took a few months to get past it... and grades suffered.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

Learned earlier about the reality of the priesthood of every believer and run from one-man magnets.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

I left because I rebuked their false accusations and would not enter their "restoration" process.  I was booted from "The City" and told that no one there would talk with me, and they would ensure that other churches in the area would know how I left.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

It needs no explanation - they get it more than those that were in it.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

The Church is not the building, a group of leaders, or a name.  It is Christians living their life before Christ - Acts talks of church in the home and church in the city... that's really it.

Please write anything else you'd like to add.

Wolves are thriving, still.

Group Leader - Downtown Seattle 2009-13

Gender

Female

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Regular Attender, Member, Group Leader (any leadership role)

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Downtown Seattle

What years were you involved / attending?

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

From a friend who recommended Mark's sermons before we moved to Seattle.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

We lived near the downtown campus, so we visited on a Sunday.

What were your first impressions?

Music was good, people were hip, location was convenient. We were looking for a place to land in a new city, we didn't know anyone, and we needed a home. We were right out of college, young, and about to get married.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

We were a young couple, coming from different religious backgrounds. I was coming from a Catholic upbringing, and my husband grew up Protestant. We wanted to be settled in a new city, and we didn't visit any other churches. We got involved in community group right away, and those were the only people we knew in Seattle. Once we got settled in the church, we didn't really look elsewhere. Our five years there went by quickly. We were young, immature and looking for people who were older and wiser to help us grow. We were sponges.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

We learned a lot in those 5 years, which I think we would have regardless of our affiliation with the church. It the first 5 years out of college, a really formative time for becoming adults. But we did learn to read the Bible for ourselves. We learned that community is important. We learned to talk about things that are hard.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

I'm still trying to process this. I don't trust people the way I used to. I'm far more skeptical than I used to be about church. We were lied to about everything. Lied to about where the money was going, what Mark's intentions were. We were lied to about what power the other leaders of the church actually had. Scripture was manipulated to reinforce Mark’s power and ideas. We were manipulated to give more money than we could afford. (I.E. If it’s not painfully “sacrificial” it’s not worth doing.) We signed a covenant to be members of the church. We kept up our end of the bargain, but Mars Hill did not. They deceived us, used us, took our money, and shut it down in time to get away with everything. I lived in a Mars Hill bubble - all my friends and community were part of that church. I didn't know hardly any people outside the bubble. Those relationships are mostly all gone. When we left the church, a lot of people ceased communicating with us at all. I started a business during my time there, and that was widely treated like a cute hobby. I had many people ask me, assume, and tell me I should shut down the business when we had kids. We went through a really tough two years of infertility while at Mars Hill, and I'm still working through with a counselor the bullshit people told me about my infertility while I was there. I was told that I was being selfish, that I was making "everything about myself" by grieving. I was told that I needed to put on a happy face and attend the (almost weekly) baby showers I was being invited to, because I was a bad friend for not attending. I was told that if I was hurting and grieving not being able to be a mother, it was because I didn't trust God and didn't believe enough. We gave of everything we had to that church, and in the end the leadership didn't care about us at all. They turned their backs on us and thousands of others.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

We were told constantly to trust our elders, a way to silence questions and shut down dissent. It was made really clear that women were not to speak up. If your husband was a leader in the church you were a “leader’s wife” or a “pastor’s wife” but you were never really allowed to be a leader yourself. I was part of forging the women’s ministry at the church, and even though I was leading women’s bible study groups and coaching other leaders, I wasn’t able to ever get a meeting with a pastor. If I brought up questions in a group setting, I was shut down. It was made very clear that because I wanted to be a leader and my husband did not, we were not okay. Even though we served the church in several capacities every Sunday and throughout the week, we were always made to feel like it wasn’t enough. We never felt like WE were enough. We never felt totally accepted. We felt like we had to earn the right to be cared for. I’m sorry this is so jumbled. Like I said, I’m still working through it.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

We had been arguing as a family about leaving for 6 months before we finally did. I felt sick walking into the church, but my husband was (understandably) nervous about leaving. We had watched dozens of our friends leave, and had seen the cruel things said to them and about them. I know I even participated in saying unkind things. It was such a hostile environment at that time, with everyone on guard and everyone hurting. There was a huge emphasis on “leaving the right way” which included not saying anything derogatory to or about the church, not speaking publicly, using words like “God has called us to go elsewhere,” and leaving quietly. So we tried to do that. We sent the pastors a letter formally resigning our membership. There are people who have not spoken to us since. It was so hard to leave. We felt like we were losing our family. But we found ourselves in a place that went against our conscience, against what we believed, being lead by men who were doing immoral things. We had to go. Leaving was painful, but also felt a little bit like being freed from prison.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

Honestly I’ve tried to not talk about it with outsiders. It’s too messy to explain. It feels shameful to have been a part of. I feel foolish for not seeing it for what is was sooner. Mars Hill closed because Mark Driscoll had been lying and manipulating the leaders and the congregation, using people as a money making scheme to build his own empire. He ejected anyone who would stand up to him, and surrounded himself with yes men. He refused to accept critique and refused to hear anything about his own sin and failures. Instead of owning his mistakes and committing to change, he cut the rope and left the church to close.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

We have not become members at our current church even though we've been going for over a year. We don't feel comfortable with that at all right now. We're learning that we don't have to earn being cared for at church, that's the church's calling from God not a perk of membership. We’re questioning the pastor’s conclusions about the Bible, and really trying to look at things in a different way. I’m seeing a counselor to help work through stuff. We’re focusing on the healthy of our family first, not the needs of the church. It’s taking time, but we’re seeing clearly.

Maurice Morales 2009-14

Your Name

Maurice Morales

Gender

Male

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Member

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Downtown Seattle

What years were you involved / attending?

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

I first heard of Mars Hill Church in an Alternative Christian Music Magazine called HM (Heaven's Metal). One of my favorite musical artist Jeff "Suffering" Bettger was being interviewed about his band "Suffering And The Hideous Thieves" and at the end of the interview he was sharing how he has been playing music at his church for the past years and years and that you could download "Team Strike Force" music on Mars Hill's website. This was back in 2004.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

I moved to Seattle from Las Vegas in 2009 to attend Redemption Groups at Mars Hill Downtown. Jeff Bettger invited me to live with him and his family and go through the counseling to address habitual sin in my life.

What were your first impressions?

I never heard a person ever share intimate details about how they were sin against. It was the rawest thing I ever witnessed.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

I left my home and community in Las Vegas to specifically be apart of Mars Hill Church Downtown Seattle. I never had a reason for MHCDTS to not be my home and I was never given a good reason to leave.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

Becoming a responsible man has been the biggest impact MHC has had on me. Though I'm not always the kindest, most patient, loving man I definitely see MHC being instrumental in even wanting to be a man that God is calling me to be.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

The way Mark Driscoll left the church has recently brought up some anger and bitterness toward him specifically. Though I wish him the best and he is definitely one of the greatest preachers of our generation, how he left was one of the most cowardly, lamest things I've ever seen and probably ever will see.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

Personally I felt pushed to go through the membership course. Things moved pretty fast and I wished that some things were more thoughtful and patient.

Which describes you?

I stayed at Mars Hill through closure.

Please describe why you stayed at Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

I never had a reason to leave. The few reasons that people confronted me with never resonated with me or my personal community. My wife is a women leader who was always cared for and loved and never disrespected. One person view me as a person that only saw Mars Hill Church as being the only "real" church in Seattle but that was never my experience or how I felt. In fact I would visit other churches in the Seattle area just to see what God was doing there.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

The Bible describes Jesus as a Good Shepherd and His flock is his church. He has entrusted His flock to other shepherd like himself, we call them church leaders. Jesus says when danger comes fake shepherds run away because all they care about is themselves and not His flock. That essentially happened at Mars Hill. Things got messy and leaders left and that includes Mark Driscoll.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

It's harder to follow along in a sermon. I'm used to Mark's clear communication and exposition but that's okay. I don't need every preacher to be like Mark.

Please write anything else you'd like to add.

If you need any further clarification please don't hesitate to contact me. I'm not offended to talk about this or anything else related to Mars Hill Church. It's like 11:30pm and I worked a 10 hour day so I guess I'm made it kinda quick but I also knew that If I didn't fill this out now, I'd probably won't have just because I'm kinda busy.

Thank you for including me in this. Mars Hill Church is something that means a lot to me and sometimes I get a little teary eyed just thinking about it. I'm ready for the future and ready to meet new people at my new church. Being a resource for other christians and serving them is something that means a lot to me. It's how I like to give. It's how I was loved when I first came to faith and it's how I plan to love as I continue on in my faith. I'm not into the in crowd social church garbage. Jesus church and his love is different that high school social BS.

Cheers!

Denise Hopeman 2011-13

Your Name

Denise Hopeman

Gender

Female

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Group Leader (any leadership role)

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Albuquerque

What years were you involved / attending?

2011, 2012, 2013

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

Younger Christian friends who had attended Calvary Osuna in Albuquerque (Skip Heitzig - Pastor) had begun attending  City on a Hill (David Bruskas -  Pastor at the time) loved it and invited us to visit. Due to a previous church imploding we were looking. We attended and might have stayed, but shortly after City on a Hill merged w/ Mars Hill Seattle and instead of a preacher we were going to have podcasts. We left, continuing a search for a gospel-preaching church. After City on the Hill merged; they reidentified as Mars Hill ABQ, moved to another location, and we continued to hearing from the same young couple that "exciting" things were happening there.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

Having not found a gospel preaching church where we felt we could bring homeless people we were ministering to...we went for a visit at MH ABQ.

What were your first impressions?

Very very young hipsters.  The ratio of old to young was 5 to 100...most of the people were between the ages of 18-30.  Mark Driscoll was commanding, spoke boldly that "we are all about Jesus all the time” and used Jesus name like seasoning throughout the sermon.  He addressed sin boldly, although w/ a lot of humor.  He seemed arrogant but adorable and we fell for the bait.  We knew that there were questions as to his style and delivery but BECAUSE we trusted J. Piper and Paul Tripp, and Acts 29's affirmation of him...we trusted them over what the Bible and the Holy Spirit was convicting us as dissonant. We thought perhaps as an older couple we would have something to "offer" this younger group. They were very verbal about Jesus and sin...very candid about their sin w/out discretion.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

We stayed and became members because of the energy there; and because they said "we are all about Jesus" all the time.  The MH machine put everyone to work serving in some capacity and shamed those who weren't serving. We had an opportunity to be "useful" in specific ways that we had never had in other churches.  Mark, my husband, became a Redemption group leader, and i was apprenticing to lead small women's groups.  We both worked in janitorial services and maintenance projects.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

Daniel Shumann (elder) during a counseling session early on bringing our attention to two things:  James 4:1-4 and an example from the Biblical counseling course there that taught us how to identify an idol. "When a good desire becomes a demand that you are willing to sin in order to get..the good desire  has morphed into an idol."

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

Competition, shaming, heavy handed leadership, silencing differing views, heavy emphasis on confessing sin indiscriminately which lead to vulnerability later used against us. NOT being encouraged to compare all things to the Word of God but rather to accept leadership's interpretation of it. Shunning from friends when we left.  errible.  The positive has come from what we learned that we ignored while there.  We were not Bereans, comparing what we were taught to what the Bible said.  We fell for the Mars Hill Brand of how to "do church" and compromised areas we knew didn't agree with scripture.  When we did finally begin to ask questions we were shamed, discounted, harassed, manipulated, or ignored (depended on the particular leader).  We were shocked at the ignorance of Scripture among many of the people.  Though we have read the Bible through every year for 9 years since being saved...we took being under authority very seriously and routinely deferred our own conscience to what we were "taught" was true for MH church.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ be preached; nothing added, nothing subtracted, that the branding which sustained the feeling that MH was better/superior than any other church in the area would be exploded. That there be open access to bring and interface w/ other churches in the area (very discouraged at the time). That serving outside MH in other capacities would have been allowed and encouraged.  We were made to feel our walk with the LORD was dependent upon our acceptance of MH methodology and it was suggest to people that going elsewhere would be a step down spiritually if not cause us to fall utterly away from Christ.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

We left MH the fall of the imminent collapse; weeks prior. Reasons: Fraudulent financial practices came to light in donations to foreign missions, Mark Driscoll's buying a position on the Bestseller list, Mark Driscoll and David Bruskas crashing the John MacArthur Strange Fire conference, rampant disorder in the leadership, Methodology incongruent w/ Scripture.  Skewed theology that promoted brand loyalty over Biblical Truth. Peer pressure heavily instituted by group leaders to snuff out questioning or differences of understanding and thought.  We met with all our elders and gave each of them the same in depth letter explaining our personal griefs, sufferings, and Biblical reasons...i'm sure it was tmi.  However, they were a weird response of silence, defending MH, owning some of the problems, confused themselves by all that was coming down. We were begged to stay off of Patheos, shamed to be commenting on that website and my commenting there was followed by the pastors and my husband (who had given me permission) was brought in to "discuss" my involvement at least 4 times.  Each time they tried to change his mind so that he would have me stop interacting and telling our story, frustrations, and getting feedback from other online Christians w/ greater maturity than ourselves.  When we left...only one person sought us out to see how we were doing.  A female friend group leader.  She was very humble and kind and wanted to listen. She was grieved at the turmoil and acknowledged the rampant disorder in the leadership. Donovan Medina told us that most of the elders information came to them through articles posted on Patheos.  Warren Throckmorton had people inside MH leadership reporting what was taking place as it did.  There was no open communication route for the 50-60 local elders across the satellites.  In fact, we were told by them that they were discouraged from talking among themselves.  Everyone looked to Seattle for direction...down to how long to stay on stage to pray during a service.   As far as i know she and her husband are still at North Church (MH ABQ new name).  

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

Exactly as i did above ^^^.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

By God's grace we found an Evangelical Anglican Church in ABQ,  Trinity@theMarketplace w/ Pastor Michael Kelshaw.  He debriefed us through about 15 hours of processing what had taken place at MH.  Wise, godly, GOSPEL saturated man...adding nothing to scripture nor taking from it.  He led us into a deep understanding of gospel truth...what Jesus has done for us on the cross...what the Holy Spirit has covenanted to do in us in conforming us to the image of Christ...assuring us that in Christ and through his Word we have ALL we need for life and godliness every minute of every day. He taught  us this and it has been a life changer.  MH was utterly stressful all the time...drenched in half truths and misunderstandings of THE Truth.  Michael Kelshaw taught us this, and we remind ourselves of it daily. LIFE and JOY, FREEDOM and gratitude flow from it/HIM.  "All the imperatives in the Bible are, for the elect,  undergirded by the fact of God setting us apart as His before time began.  In Christ’s finished work on the cross FOR us we have a complete inheritance enabling us to fulfill his commands for our joy and his glory.  Set free from slavery to sin, we get to believe and obey, and our hearts desire becomes progressively more eager to!  When we fail we have an Advocate w/ our Father...Jesus who laid down his life for his friends. What a God! What a Savior! What a LORD and King!  LIFE is imparted to me NOT by turning inward on my own anxieties, fears, worldly lusts, temptations, and temporal conditions; but by turning outward to gaze upon the glory of Christ’s finished work FOR me and the covenant of his Spirit to be daily working IN me!  He has promised to use ALL things that impact me (comforting, discomforting, good and seemingly bad)  to conform me to his image and sanctify me for eternal life with him. No situation, no person, no relationship or lack thereof, no material or physical anything can add to, or subtract from my rest and peace in Him.  Nothing can make me more or less whole than I already am in Him. He finished work on the cross has given me EVERYTHING I need for life and godliness for every moment of every day until he brings me home! It's not a figment of my imagination....I have it all because I have Him. The Holy Spirit reveals every lie to the contrary…let my emotions and the words of men be lies…but God be true!! Hallellulia!"


Please write anything else you'd like to add.

That's a good start...If you want some of the confusing gory personal details i will gladly give you a copy of the letter written to the elders upon our departure.  When i read it now i see an incredibly confused, anxiety ridden experience in its 5 pages.

Regular Attender - Ballard 2004-07

Gender

Female

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Regular Attender

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Ballard

What years were you involved / attending?

2004, 2005, 2006, 2007

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

College roommates of mine who were brilliant, scholarly women that I looked up to and respected were regular attenders. And then my friends started going, more and more of them.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

One friend invited me to come along. It seemed way cooler than UPC which I had been attending fairly regularly my first year of college. I remember debating what to wear. Would I fit in?

What were your first impressions?

Big, loud twangy music. Lots of people. All of them dressed in dark colors, cooler than me, all contemplative and deep.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

It seemed like a good place to be. At the time it was refreshing to have long seemingly honest and well said sermons. Most people will listen to a charismatic speaker regardless of what he says. And then there were the underlying vibe, not necessarily directly stated from the pulpit, but somewhat implied, that this was the only church in Seattle preaching the truth and not being wimpy about things.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

For better or worse, Mark did a great job of getting up front and saying we all shouldn't be listening to him, we should be looking for truth in the bible. But then he would give his interpretation of biblical truth on a subject and we all would listen and believe him. Somehow, when I really started to disagree, I at least felt empowered to look at the bible myself and come to different conclusions. For that I am thankful.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

I grew up in a fairly liberal Lutheran church. Nothing crazy, but surrounded by strong women in leadership roles. I got to Mars and was somehow quickly convinced that all of that was wrong. That my mom shouldn't have been working when I grew up. One horrible Mother's Day sermon by pastor Leif, that I still to this day regret bringing my mother to, had her in tears, apologizing to me as we left, asking, "did you feel like I wasn't there for you?" My mom was amazing.

Somehow we still stayed after that, and my then boyfriend became my fiancé and we eagerly jumped into premarital counseling. I'm beyond grateful that we didn't listen to what the pastors were saying in our one on one sessions. They told us we weren't comparable. All of my answers were wrong to the online test we'd been given because somehow I'd managed to push aside all of the "fine china" ideas that women weren't capable of being equal partners and my answers reflected that. I'm proud to say that despite Mars Hill, we went ahead and got married and have been happily married for almost 10 years now in a marriage of equal roles that don't always divide down traditional gender roles. I mean, that proverbs 31 woman was out buying fields. And that's what I held regardless of how many times the pastors in the premarital group said I needed to consult my husband before making most purchases.

I feel like I could go on and on, there are a lot of moments and feelings I think I've chosen to push aside and forget. All in all, the most negative and lasting impact Mars Hill has had is my continued inability to trust a church. And that really sucks.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

The attitude towards women and gender rolls. I still cringe when I hear the word "submission" in any context.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

I was struggling with being there, but we stayed because my husband was getting things out of the preaching, thankfully the things he was getting we're all good and inspiring him to be a better husband and person, so I was willing to sit through church for him. And then, Mark announced that they were going to do a  sermon series on the book of Ruth. I was thrilled. They were going to be talking about women! And within the first sermon I knew I no longer wanted to be at Mars Hill.  I'm pretty sure if Mark had named the book he would've called it Boaz and not Ruth. I was simultaneously amazed and absolutely disappointed that somehow this book of the Bible named for a brave and Godly woman named Ruth could be preached on in a way that it seemed like it was about a man named Boaz and how awesome he was.

At the same time they were suddenly interested my husband for a leadership role. And then just as suddenly they weren't. Because it turns out they looked into our giving and saw that we weren't giving anything- or so they thought. We received an annual statement of giving in the mail with a big fat 0 in it. Oh, and someone with sticky fingers manages to accidentally slip someone else's statement into our envelope. Great job with privacy on that one. The thing is, we had been giving, but the name on our checks was slightly different from the name they had in record for my husband. At this point, he was a member and I wasn't technically. We'd both gone through the membership classes before getting married, I'd just never completed the interview and he had. I think part of me was not wanting to officially commit all along.

Anyhow, after calling a pastor we knew and trusted, he apologized for the mixup with the tithing. And through a couple of conversations with different people in leadership we realized that was why they were suddenly so cold towards my husband about becoming an elder. I mean, you'd think they could have at least asked him outright about his giving.

And then there were friends calling us asking what we thought about the bad advice they were getting from pastors and elders. And then when you saw how much chaos existed inside of the leadership, how many young men without wisdom or experience were being put in the position to counsel others and giving terrible advice, you just saw that this couldn't last forever.

And don't even get me started about when I got to the point with the crap Mark was saying and things in the media that made me beyond embarrassed to admit that I went there.  Even after I left Mars Hill I felt embarrassed to even say I was a Christian in Seattle because of the negative impact the church had on people's ideas of Christianity. It sucks when the church limits your ability to witness to non-believers around you and when it strips you of all believability and trustworthiness.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

God's will being done.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

My convictions and beliefs are my own now. I'm not trying to force myself to believe what someone else tells me is the truth. And I'm happy. I just wish I wasn't still too scared to commit to a church.

Please write anything else you'd like to add.

For me the most healing part is realizing that I'm not alone. I'm not the only person that was negatively impacted and I'm not the only person trying to come to terms and heal.   I was always somebody who worried about doing the right thing in God's eyes and not sitting and being the perfect Christian and unfortunately Mars Hill was the exact type of place to pray on my insecurities and get me to spend years thinking that I wasn't good enough and that my unwillingness to submit to my husband was a sin. I had enough guilt going into Mars Hill. And I stayed so long because I felt guilt and was somehow convinced that no other church had the truth in the same way. Leaving was very freeing.