Mark Dunford 2007-14

Your Name

Mark Dunford

Gender

Male

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Group Leader (any leadership role)

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Ballard, Portland

What years were you involved / attending?

2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

I was invited to a new Community Group that was forming by the leader and his wife.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

After attending the group a few times, I decided to attend a service to take notes on what they'd talk about in the group.

What were your first impressions?

I thought the preaching style was really entertaining and I was surprised to have been engaged for over an hour by a preacher.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

I genuinely enjoyed the community groups and made a lot of close friends that have continued to speak into my life effectively.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

I met Jesus at Mars Hill in a way that I'd not been exposed to him earlier. I really appreciated so many of the people that I met there.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

It didn't end well for me. I grew into substantial distrust of the upper leadership of the church and felt intentionally deceived in the end by the BOAA and the EE. I'd really hoped that as elders, we'd be able to help correct the issues in the church. Unfortunately, by the time I'd realized that reality, we had too little time to deal with the stubborn continued sin of the EE and certain members of the BOAA.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

In the end, the elders were unable to hold Mark to any sort of accountability. It likely would have needed to happen prior to 2012, but I wish that the structure had been in place for the eldership as a whole to act. I also wish the elders could have communicated better cross-campus. Having elders in different states and cities meant that many of them weren't networked together and this greatly hindered the ability to talk things out.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

I was dismissed from Mars Hill with my eldership being revoked, along with my wife and my membership. I can't express how devastating the experience was and felt more bullied than anything else.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

Mars Hill followed a distorted structure of church government and had in its most prominent and public-facing position, a man who was grossly disqualified, surrounded by men who shamefully protected him.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

I look at church government much differently than I did when I was there. I also see the importance of hearing multiple voices from the pulpit. I think the size of the church was also a major issue - especially when it came to communication. I think it's important for churches to remain at a manageable size.

Member - Ballard, Bellevue, U-District 2007-14

Gender

Male

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Member, Group Leader (any leadership role)

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Ballard, Bellevue, U-District

What years were you involved / attending?

2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

From a friend who began attending in high school

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

I came with that friend in the evening after attending my home church in the morning

What were your first impressions?

The music was excellent, and the preaching was engaging

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

The people at the U-District campus where I attended were hugely important in my life

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

The people I met are still huge parts of my life, including my wife and some of my best friends.
Mars Hill did a pretty good job of shaping me as young man and teaching me to take on responsibility and get my act together. I think my life would have looked quite a bit different otherwise.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

I've become cynical and distrustful of church leadership.
My faith has gone through a bit of a dry spell in the year since leaving.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

I would have liked to see the church and its leadership walk in the light, admit wrongdoing, and experience the grace and healing of God

Which describes you?

I stayed at Mars Hill through closure.

Please describe why you stayed at Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

We left when the U-District campus closed, so a few months prior to complete closure. We stayed because we felt an obligation to the campus pastor and our friends there, all of whom were really great. We had gone through a lot of churn and change in our life that year and didn't want to uproot another thing, even though we really wanted to leave.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

To a Christian, I would just say that the leadership was caught in a variety of sin - some minor and some major. As they refused to repent, God chose to close its doors.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

We're at a new church now.
I don't feel the need to defend the controversial or hyper-masculine teachings anymore.

Regular Attender - Bellevue 2011-14

Gender

Male

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Regular Attender

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Bellevue

What years were you involved / attending?

2011, 2012, 2013, 2014

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

I was in college (far away from Washington State or any Mars Hill campus) and all my friends were talking about this preacher named Mark Driscoll. I hadn't up until that point bothered to podcast any preacher and couldn't find the point of it - Sunday mornings, campus ministry meetings, and Bible studies were enough for me. Then one Bible study, my Bible study leader told us to listen a recent Mark Driscoll sermon relevant to the topic.

I listened to that sermon and was amazed at how he made the Bible come alive. From that point forward, I couldn't get enough of Mark Driscoll. I would listen to his sermons at work, while I was cleaning my apartment, while doing homework, while driving, and basically any time I had an hour to spare. I don't know what it was about Mark Driscoll, but somehow he instilled in me a passion to know the Bible and know God more.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars Hill?

A few years after I had first been exposed to Mark Driscoll, I graduated and a job in the Seattle area fell into my lap. I had felt called somewhere else after graduation, but after failing to land a job in that area and having an offer from the Seattle firm, I felt that God must be calling me to Mars Hill for at least a season. I had been disappointed with my walk with Jesus around that time and I felt that going to Mars Hill would be the spark that could re-ignite my relationship with God. All of my friends were really jealous that Mars Hill was going to be my new church.

What were your first impressions?

I arrived in Seattle on a Friday. While I had free time before starting work, I tried to knock out as many Seattle tourist attractions as possible. However, there was one thing I was more excited about than anything else - a Sunday at Mars Hill.

Mars Hill was surprisingly to me, a normal church. The Bellevue campus met in the gymnasium of a Christian elementary school back then. They had a guest preacher preach that weekend so I didn't hear Mark Driscoll preach.
The thing I was most surprised at was the fact that nobody talked to me or acknowledged my existence outside of a welcome by a greeter. This was generally my experience in my past church visits, but I had expected more from Mars Hill and this absolutely perfect church that I had in my mind.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

During my first year at Mars Hill, I felt alone. I did not feel the sense of community I had felt in other churches/ministries. I had at one point begun to look at other churches, but I couldn't find myself quickly integrating into any of those places either (though to be fair, I never really gave them much of a shot).

Around this time, Mark Driscoll was preaching about the church being a family and that if there's something about your family you don't like, you don't just pick up and find a new family, you help out.

To this, I decided I would figure out a way to improve the community situation at Mars Hill. I became a greeter, but soon became overwhelmed by the rapidly expanding Bellevue campus as Mark Driscoll made his home there. I could not engage people - my job was to squeeze more people into the seats.

I started realizing that the Mars Hill leadership's vision of community and my own were incompatible. I mostly found community in parachurch ministries I was involved in while continuing to call Mars Hill my church home.

I at one point took membership classes at Mars Hill, but while I was going through those, the church discipline controversy hit and I got cold feet. I never did become a member.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

One Sunday, Mars Hill advertised a Redemption Group celebration night. I really wanted to see what God was doing in the lives of those around me so I attended. It was there that I was encouraged to sign up for Redemption Group.

During Redemption Group, I began to go through a period of doubt. I had many such periods before and I usually snapped out of them. Given the open-sharing nature of Redemption Group, I decided to bring my doubts to the group. I found that there were no answers to all these questions that were inside of me.

One of the group leaders eventually said that God is a loving father and if his child cries out to him asking if he's there, he will wrap his arms around his child.

That night, I prayed and begged God to show himself to me and wrap his arms around me - tears streaming down my face. After a long night of doing this, I got my answer - there was no God. The world and everything in my life up until that point suddenly made sense. I had always believed it took more faith to be an atheist, but as God fell away as reality in my mind, I realized how many mental gymnastics I had done to allow God's reality to continue in my mind.

The next few remaining Redemption Group meetings never got to talking about me so I never told the group what I had concluded. It took me a while to tell Christians that I had walked away - imagine how hard it would be to talk to friends about a messy breakup when they believe your ex is perfect in every way and you're the screw up.

Despite this, I continued attending, serving, and even giving to Mars Hill for a few more months. Mainly, I wanted to keep up appearances and show people that my apostasy was not about money or time or anything other than genuine disbelief (more out of a thought that that's what I would have thought about a friend walking away).

Eventually, as more and more controversies started coming out of Mars Hill, I started to become disgusted that I was funding such an operation. I immediately stopped giving, attending, and serving at Mars Hill.

As more and more controversies started coming out of Mars Hill, it provided more and more confirmation for me that God was not real.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

I've had to explain Mars Hill's fall to many members of various atheist groups. There's a perception among these groups that Mars Hill was just this absolutely evil entity that got what was coming to it. I've had to explain that it's not. There were so many awesome people who went there that I loved. I was loved at Mars Hill. Many are surprised as I tell them the story of Mars Hill's fall that there was no sex abuse or anything of a similar nature - just a church populace that had higher expectations than a leader that employed bullying, shunning, and spiritual abuse.

That said, I absolutely believe that the Christian faith and church structure lends itself to this kind of spiritual abuse. Having joined various post-Mars Hill communities online, I see several people for whom Mars Hill was not their first abusive church. They will now find another church in the hopes that this doesn't happen again. My heart breaks for these people, but I feel I can't help them because I'm now an outsider and no one will listen to me because of what I believe (I'm not even convinced this story will be published).

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

Well, I'm an atheist now. At various times I've read what I've written in journals during my time at Mars Hill and I'm scared at the contents. I had a very negative self-view - absolutely hated myself. Evangelicalism always has the paradox that you are holy and blameless in God's sight but you are a piece of crap without Jesus and don't you forget it. I leaned on the latter statement. Since then, I've taken a much more positive view of myself and learned to love myself - celebrate the things I like and work on improving the things I don't (since I can't rest on the hope that Jesus is going to magically improve me). This, I believe is the most important change for me.

Please write anything else you'd like to add.

I know there's going to be a variety of reactions to this piece. Some are going to look through my story to see how I was selfish, sinning, not a real Christian, etc. and so it's no surprise I walked away (that's probably what Christian me would have done).

Some will see my story as a Mars Hill-caused tragedy and think that Mars Hill is the problem and that if I just went to their new church and if applicable, adopted their new version of Christianity, I would see that God is real and learn to love him again. It's definitely true that I would likely still be a Christian if it weren't for Mars Hill, but it's only because Mars Hill gave me a forum to be open with my doubts like never before instead of feeling ashamed of them and shoving them in the back of my mind until they resurfaced another time.

Some will look at my post-Christian triumphs and see me as selfish and the various ways I've committed my life to sin now that I've walked away.

Some will try any means necessary to persuade me to come back to the faith (spoiler alert: it's not going to happen).

Honestly, very few Christians will respond positively to me or this post. It's one thing not to believe because you don't know, it's another thing entirely to know, believe, and then suddenly walk away from all that.

I don't care about that though. This site serves as a record of the experiences of people who walked through Mars Hill. In participating in post-Mars Hill online groups, I've found that people with my story are very underrepresented. I feel my story deserves to be told just as much as those who inexplicably came out of Mars Hill with their faith intact.

Jeff Bettger 1997-2014

Your Name

Jeff Bettger

Gender

Male

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Regular Attender, Member, Group Leader (any leadership role), Staff

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Ballard, Downtown Seattle, Shoreline, West Seattle

What years were you involved / attending?

1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

I heard about it through some friends. A person I knew had led worship there early on once and I thought I would go check it out.

What was the circumstance of your first time attending Mars HIll?

I walked from my house in the u-district to its then Laurelhurst location. It was in the evening and they had candles burning and generally a dark atmosphere that I enjoyed.

What were your first impressions?

This is interesting. I think I could come back

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

I played punk rock music and watched horror films. Nobody at MHC questioned my Christianity because I enjoyed a darker aesthetic. I had always felt like a misfit. I was not "christian" enough for the Christians, and too "christian" for those who did not identify with Christianity. At MHC I found more people like me. I found a community of misfits who loved Jesus and also enjoyed the cultural stuff I did. The Philosophy and name Mars hill came from Acts 17 when Paul uses cultural icons of Athens to proclaim the Gospel message to the folks listening. I loved this idea and philosophy to faith in Christ.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

There were so many different phases it's hard to boil down. Early on the fact that I was asked to be a part of the worship band was monumental. the Philosophy of writing a new song to the Lord was amazing. We created our own music and played it at church. that was saying a ton for cultural contextualization which I so loved. Later it was the friendships I established and some aspects of reformed theology really challenged my thinking. When Redemption Groups began I also had some intense life giving and changing experiences. The depths of intimacy, trust, vulnerability and love I felt present in that ministry was forever life changing.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

The harping on gender roles had a negative effect on me. I did not see it then as much as I do now. It was an issue that was not a direct gospel thing it was a cultural agenda. I am not sure why Mark chose that issue to really harp on. I thought I did at the time, but I am not sure now.

My wife (high school sweetheart) never fit the MHC mold for relationships. Instead of being encouraged to be who god made us and build our life accordingly we tried to conform thinking it was God's will for us. Post MHC we have had a rough go figuring out how to readjust who we are with who we were taught to be. Jesus loves us and made us the way we are. We are now egalitarian and I am a feminist. The positive and theological depth of those issues was portrayed in a shallow one sided way at MHC. This had such a negative effect on me, that during that time I would use scripture to Lord over my wife, thinking I was justified in the eyes of God for Pharisaical self righteousness.

Another negative thing was the ideas that we were riding some wave of god's grace due to the numbers of people in attendance. This is not even a Biblical idea. the grace of God is for all people, and is in Christ alone. This large corporate branding and mega attendance stuff is confusing and another cultural thing that has nothing to do with the gospel. That was negative and has taken me a while to reorient my bearings back towards Christ instead of works.

I was in the first round of infamous layoffs. That was hard. It was also alienating. The way people were treated as commodity instead of family was negative. I wish that had been more apparent to me at the time. I would have left then. However I was duped by the confusing nature of pragmatism and numbers in attendance that I felt a part of something special. That was the lie. Being a part of the kingdom of God is what is special.

The result source campaign and the way it was told to me was a lie and therefore a false Gospel. I found out from some pastors and was alarmed so I took it through the chain of command at my location as I was a volunteer pastor as well. I was told that it was common business practice and therefore ethically alright. Shortly after I quit because I could not be a part of something that lied in the name of God, purposefully to make a platform for an author to get more money and popularity. That is a Gospel of self not of Jesus Christ.

I also raised support as a missionary in the city of Seattle. at first it was with MHC, but then it became more difficult to raise support in that environment. They wanted all the money to go to MHC not independent missionaries. I could not do that, and therefore I needed to leave so I could be in a healthy environment to do what I do.

What would you like to have changed about Mars Hill?

I would have not let MD have the authority he had. I would have made a plurality of elders and kept everyone with equal say. I would not have focused on high tech wizardry at the expense of knowing the congregation personally. I would wanted only the Gospel message preached with all of it's mystery and history of differences. I would have wanted RG's to be more of a focus with the values of gentleness, love, and waiting for God than some of the MHC heavy handed authoritarian hierarchic bologna.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

I left because I was changing in conviction about how I wanted to practice my faith. I also was getting sick and disgusted by the lies being told by leadership. I was a pastor and sometime I would hear my fellow pastors answer honestly about things, but most of the time it was like everyone was part of a machine and spoke like they had no opinion of their own. When I found out about the result source campaign I was horrified. the last straw was seeing the advertising for the last resurgence conference and Marks last book. It felt like an us against them manifesto for culture wars. I wanted nothing to do with that kind of thing.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

I would describe it as God closing down an abusive, domineering, religious institution in order to soften the hearts of his people for others who live in the city around them. It is also a monumental example of how not to practice your faith. Do not think you are the best or even the right thing. There is a history of conservative and progressive Christians in this world. god is doing His thing among all people. We got arrogant and self righteous.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

I still raise support as a missionary in the city of Seattle. The things I do have been easier and moved forward in a more well received light now that I am not associated with a religious institution hated by our city. I am a feminist and egalitarian now. I still have a deep profound faith in Christ.

James - Ballard 2007-14

Your Name

James

Gender

Male

Which describes your role at Mars Hill?

Regular Attender, Member, Group Leader (any leadership role)

What Mars Hill location(s) did you attend?

Ballard

What years were you involved / attending?

2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014

How did you first hear about Mars Hill?

I don't recall.  We had landed several blocks away from the Ballard campus when we moved to the area, and had perhaps heard it mentioned a couple times.

What were your first impressions?

Good music - skilled musicians, current with music culture, combination of hymn-derived and original pieces (no "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs).  Entertaining and challenging preaching - sounded very authentic.

Why was Mars Hill your church home?

It was full of real people, open people, needy and seeking people.  With that "culturally liberal but theologically conservative" blend, people were not there to be comfortable in the church-culture sense.  Being challenged was what it was all about, and the need was always there as things grew and grew.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a positive impact on you?

I retain an improved meta-focus on the "what now, what next", what I might call the growth mindset.  I've made and kept good friends through the community group network that still meet regularly even today.  Some of these are people who would not have been friends in any other context, but truly did come together in Christian community.  It's the best model and execution of small groups that I've seen.

What about your time at Mars Hill has had a negative impact on you?

Well, the leadership culture did turn out to be poisonous.  Even before Kraft et al's revelations, leadership was short-minded, too hierarchical, and chaotic.  We told ourselves it was because of the growth and just trying to keep up with things, but by about the third time staffers got laid off around Christmas, something stunk (at least about money management - we hoped that Turner would clean that up).  CG leadership was sincere but chaotic and unempowered.  I had 5 coaches in 4 years as a CG leader, and merely counted myself lucky that I didn't actually need anything from any of them.

Which describes you?

I left Mars Hill prior to closure.

Please describe why you left Mars Hill and what that experience was like.

The Kraft charges in March were the big game changer.  It was the incredible missing piece that made the hundred other oddities all connect to each other.  Everything clicked into place and made sense: Driscoll wasn't putting on an act in the pulpit, being more extreme to provoke and challenge people.  He was even more anger-driven outside the pulpit!

I spent a couple months researching, documenting the timeline, mostly waiting to see if and when Driscoll would come clean and fully repent.  He got sad and apologetic, but still defiantly unrepentant (saying he couldn't engage with anonymous detractors) regarding his core characteristic sins.  More and more pastors and leaders from the formerly silent inner circle spoke up, wrote, and the evidence piled up.

At Ballard, the loyalist (to Driscoll) leadership faction held on over the righteous rebels.  The beloved RG author pastor was already gone, and the "Lead" pastor was the boss/manager of the Ballard pastors there.  He fired one for not being "on-board" enough regarding Driscoll's repentance to that point, and half of the rest resigned in protest at that point.  I spent hours talking with that pastor personally at that time and later, and even after Driscoll ran away, as the church dissolved, he still believed that he would do it all over again the same way.  Unbelievable.

The seal-the-deal moment was Driscoll's wretched but prophetic (to himself) sermon on wolves - the one where he started with the audio clip of howling.  He asked, after talking of shepherds and wolves, "Who is *your* alpha?"  All I could do is sit there with jaw dropped and say "It's you, Mark!  This church is following you, you're that alpha wolf!".  Honestly, I still can't understand what Driscoll thought he was saying that day - the term "alpha" isn't/wasn't applied to shepherds.

Our CG (including 2 CG leaders, 2 CG coaches, and an RG leader) all left the church at the pretty much the same time, together.  May and June, the vision breakfast and member meeting were the last chances for anything to turn around, and it clearly wasn't going to.

How would you describe the reason for Mars Hill's closure to an outsider.

Forget plagiarism, misogyny, or anything financial.  The reason Mars Hill closed is because Mark Driscoll was angry, prideful, abusive, and unrepentant.  Oh, he apologized for things - but he never really owned it, never really repented.  He still hasn't, in any speaking appearance since.  He was a "master manipulator" (direct quote from abused pastor) and brilliant speaker, but behind the scenes he used shame, anger, fear, verbal and emotional abuse to rule the church leadership.  THAT is why Mars Hill collapsed.

What's changed for you since your time at Mars Hill came to an end?

I'm a little more cynical, and will be calling BS a little quicker in any similar situation in the future.  We collectively put too much faith, with too little verifiability, in a too-distant leader.

In leadership myself, I've learned to focus more on giving intent instead of orders.  That empowering leaders is key to their growth.